Curse

Avarre · Jul 23, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The player is only better off in the sense of immediate results; that A is better in the short-term is obvious to the point of not being worth discussion. But in exchange for these results, the player gives up all hope of improvement. You can't learn how to use B by sticking with A. Encouraging the use of A based on assumptions about a player's current skill level is doing them a disservice.

If someone is bad at interrupting, to you advise them to drop dshot, or do you advise them to get more practice?

The mechanics required to use any bar are transferable. Even running a sub-par bar will teach you the basics - and at the level of play that prohibits running a hybrid, what you need to learn are basics. Things like active protting are too far above that player's level - they can at least learn basic protting and party/energy management first.

Dshot isn't replaceable, so that's not a fair comparison. Nor is bar 'A' a prot-less bar - you're lowering the skill requirements to get immediate results. Players like results, and you learn quicker when what you're trying to do is more accessible. A better example is when players are new/have poor awareness, you put them on more passive midline characters to give them a chance to work on observing the game. You don't just say 'practice' and tell them to run interrupt mes, because at that point of their development they'll just fall apart.

Reread my prior post, and you'll note that I said the player should use A until they are comfortable with it, at which point they should move up to B. You seem to think I said the player should stick with A until they know how to use B, which of course would not happen. I was talking about the short term, and went to lengths to make that clear.

YunSooJin · Jul 23, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

I would think that A would just encourage bad habits and it would preferable just to go to B.

Avarre · Jul 23, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Would you really trust new players to run B? We're not talking the average PUG player, I mean legitimately new, orison-is-my-favorite-skill new. Simple bars are by far better for a new player to learn because it cuts the number of things they need to focus on. Note 'simple', not 'bad'.

Prot bars are useless without general awareness. I'd imagine a player who finished the game could use one well enough (ie: anyone in an elite area).

YunSooJin · Jul 23, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

I don't know.. as a monk, wouldn't you pre-click on the warrior charging in, cause they're probably needing heals? Isn't it the same for your midliner that's getting charged by a warrior? Whether its prot or its heal, you probably want an idea in advance of who's going to get hit. With prot you just cast it earlier.

pug_ster · Jul 23, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Hybrids are great, but if you are on a team with 2 Monks, coordinating those hybrids is not always easy. If both took Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond, which one will use it on the target that needs it? Both usually, wasting energy and allowing another person to miss out on the Prots.

Myself, in PvE, I always take 2 Monks, 1 pure Heal and 1 pure Protect. So an HB build with nothing but red bar pushing would work if it was paired up with a Prot Monk to reduce the damage the team was taking. However, I find UA to be batter than HB. Instant rez is amazing when it gives you full health and energy, and the +healing benefit is better than HB unless running it on a hybrid with Heal, Prot, and Divine attributes used.

It isn't the Monk bars, it is the Monk players. Many don't understand how the skills work (as demonstrated by the discussion in this topic) and many don't know how aggro in PvE works or understand things as basic as energy management. And just because the game is 4 years old doesn't mean the players have played for 4 years. Look around the forums and in game and you will see NEW people are just starting for the first time still.

I agree. Playing a healing/prot monk is totally different than playing other profession. I'll be honest here and say that a hero monk can probably outheal pug monk because they can simply out-react any real player. I would even say that heroes have good energy management management because you can make them as a mesmer secondary and equip them with power drain and waste not want not on them. The difference with playing with a good pug monk in HM is that he/she will know when to cut and run.

Yesterday I was playing a monk in Abaddon's mouth for zq mission and we agrooed 2-3 groups of mobs, after about 1-2 players died, i said run. After 3-4 people died, we regrouped and was able to finish the mission. 2 weeks ago we have a similiar situation in Gate of Pain zq hm mission where everybody except me got wiped out. I res everybody and we were able to finish the mission.

A good pug monk has to be the last man standing, so to speak. Whereas a hero monk would follow the leader and heal until it dies.

glacialphoenix · Jul 23, 2009, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

I don't know.. as a monk, wouldn't you pre-click on the warrior charging in, cause they're probably needing heals?

Actually, it's likelier that a newbie monk would watch the red bars, not the warrior charging in - hence, he'd react to the bar going down, rather than predicting that the warrior would take the hits. That's a bigger gap from heal to prot than the situation you're suggesting.

Quote:

I'll be honest here and say that a hero monk can probably outheal pug monk because they can simply out-react any real player.

Outheal, yes. Outprot, no. Then again, most pug monks don't prot, so the point is moot. Ironically enough, heroes seem to be iffy at using HB/HP (as evidenced by a few complaints I saw in another thread), which is the most common pug monk bar anyway.

Burst Cancel · Jul 23, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Dshot isn't replaceable, so that's not a fair comparison. Nor is bar 'A' a prot-less bar - you're lowering the skill requirements to get immediate results. Players like results, and you learn quicker when what you're trying to do is more accessible. A better example is when players are new/have poor awareness, you put them on more passive midline characters to give them a chance to work on observing the game. You don't just say 'practice' and tell them to run interrupt mes, because at that point of their development they'll just fall apart.

You're redefining A and B.

Ensign's particular example dealt with spot condition/hex removal. His argument was that, assuming a player does not have the field awareness to remove critical hexes and conditions while avoiding cover/spam hexes, that spot removal is useless and should not be used. Here, option A excludes option B entirely: "bring spot removal" vs. "don't bring spot removal".

Thus, dshot is an excellent example here because it absolutely is replaceable - with a non-interrupt; if you can't interrupt anything of importance, you're ostensibly better off not taking an interrupt at all. The problem is, you can't learn interrupting without an interrupt on your bar, just as you can't learn spot removal by not using them. You cannot improve under option A, as currently defined.

The point is, you can't wait until you get good at something to start using it, because using it is what makes you good at it in the first place. If your recommendations always exclude everything that is beyond a player's current ability to use, you end up with exactly the situation Ensign described: hordes of bad players that are bad because of a "management" decision to keep them that way.

Edit:
Avarre, we appear to be talking past each other. There's a difference between dropping skills to learn things one at a time, and dropping them simply because they're beyond your current ability to use.

I think we can agree on at least one thing: if you want to develop an ability, you have to bring a skill that utilizes that ability. Doing so requires you to bring skills that, by definition, you are unable to use effectively, which runs directly counter to Ensign's example.

Yichi · Jul 23, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Prot bars are useless without general awareness. I'd imagine a player who finished the game could use one well enough (ie: anyone in an elite area).

You might want to re-think this...

Jaigoda · Jul 24, 2009, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Thus, dshot is an excellent example here because it absolutely is replaceable - with a non-interrupt; if you can't interrupt anything of importance, you're ostensibly better off not taking an interrupt at all. The problem is, you can't learn interrupting without an interrupt on your bar, just as you can't learn spot removal by not using them. You cannot improve under option A, as currently defined.

Here's the difference: Interupts require excellent reflexes and/or prediction abilities. Prots require almost solely just a good battlefield awareness. While it's very difficult to learn interupts without having them on your bar, it's quite easy to learn battlefield awareness even with a full heal bar. See, even back when I ran WoH, Dwayna's, Orison, and Healing Touch all on the same bar (a LONG time ago, mind you), I was still starting to practice good prot habits; I was watching where the damage would come, and have the person already targetted and starting to cast a heal. I didn't even need a prot to start practicing prot tactics.

the_jos · Jul 24, 2009, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by pug_ster

Yesterday I was playing a monk in Abaddon's mouth for zq mission and we agrooed 2-3 groups of mobs, after about 1-2 players died, i said run. After 3-4 people died, we regrouped and was able to finish the mission. 2 weeks ago we have a similiar situation in Gate of Pain zq hm mission where everybody except me got wiped out. I res everybody and we were able to finish the mission.

A good pug monk has to be the last man standing, so to speak. Whereas a hero monk would follow the leader and heal until it dies.

Abaddon's Mouth should be a walk in the park for somewhat experienced players.
There are no hard places in that mission with some (minimal) team coordination.
The main reason people fail there is because the leaders often don't know how to build a decent team and others don't dare to step in to tell the leader to reorganise. Sounds like PUG

When I play monk in PUGs and this doesn't happen often I make sure everyone understands that there is no res on my bar. I might have some scrolls with me, but that's not obvious for them.
As monk it's my job to keep the team alive and make sure they can do full damage, not to clean up the mess they create after they died because of overaggro or get in a bad position.
Now I know PUGs might think different but when I play let's say Abbadon's Mouth HM for Z-quest I expect them to understand this.
If they don't they should not be playing HM.

Quote:

The difference with playing with a good pug monk in HM is that he/she will know when to cut and run.

This made me laugh. And really sad at the same time.
But then, there are some good reasons I don't PUG that often with my monk and this one gets close to those reasons.

Avarre · Jul 24, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

You might want to re-think this...

I may have been slightly optimistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I think we can agree on at least one thing: if you want to develop an ability, you have to bring a skill that utilizes that ability. Doing so requires you to bring skills that, by definition, you are unable to use effectively, which runs directly counter to Ensign's example.

I agree with this. I'm referring more to the fact that when developing skills, you shouldn't bring things that are far beyond your ability, because you learn a bit faster using things that are just a bit above you. Hence, bar A transitioning into B.

khezial tahr · Jul 24, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Some of you have severe reading comprehension issues. It's abundantly clear that the OP is wondering (rhetorically, I imagine) why monk players are still bringing terrible skills. It's particularly egregious considering that the principles - and many of the skills - behind monk bars have not changed significantly since the game's release.

Skills like Orison and Healing Breeze have never been good, and have never seen serious play - not in boonprot, not in blight, not in ZB, not in LoD, not ever. The fact that large numbers of people still bring them is solid evidence that players (or monk players, at least) have learned pretty much nothing in the past four years, and are just as lethally stupid now as they were then.

Why ask a rhetorical question on an online forum? :P

I monk, so I guess I learned pretty quick. I get compliments, so I must be on the right track... I don't see this too often. And when I do I either give them builds, or do it myself. I happened to have good people to help teach me, which is something many others do not have.

pug_ster · Jul 24, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Abaddon's Mouth should be a walk in the park for somewhat experienced players.
There are no hard places in that mission with some (minimal) team coordination.
The main reason people fail there is because the leaders often don't know how to build a decent team and others don't dare to step in to tell the leader to reorganise. Sounds like PUG

When I play monk in PUGs and this doesn't happen often I make sure everyone understands that there is no res on my bar. I might have some scrolls with me, but that's not obvious for them.
As monk it's my job to keep the team alive and make sure they can do full damage, not to clean up the mess they create after they died because of overaggro or get in a bad position.
Now I know PUGs might think different but when I play let's say Abbadon's Mouth HM for Z-quest I expect them to understand this.
If they don't they should not be playing HM.

This made me laugh. And really sad at the same time.
But then, there are some good reasons I don't PUG that often with my monk and this one gets close to those reasons.

Actually, Monks can res fast now using UA, which makes a BIG difference in HM. It was kind of funny of people trying to form groups for HM ZQ yesterday for Nundu bay. UA is necessary especially for bosses like Dervish boss Sheoli which does insane amount of damage using mystic twister. The other pugs don't pull (again) and we agrooed 2 groups so I have to do the cut and run thing. Afterwards, I had to pull, imagine a monk pulling mobs.

For my other non-monk toons for the ZQ mission yesterday, I just grouped with a 2 pugs discordway group and have less problems.

Jaigoda · Jul 24, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by pug_ster

Actually, Monks can res fast now using UA, which makes a BIG difference in HM. It was kind of funny of people trying to form groups for HM ZQ yesterday for Nundu bay. UA is necessary especially for bosses like Dervish boss Sheoli which does insane amount of damage using mystic twister. The other pugs don't pull (again) and we agrooed 2 groups so I have to do the cut and run thing. Afterwards, I had to pull, imagine a monk pulling mobs.

I used to pull all the time, and still do for pugs and H/H. I got my longbow out, shot at the closest monster, then hauled ass back to the backline. Worked great in the old tombs B/P and stuff. I know I also almost always pull (on any prof) for that one part in Hell's Precipice where the bonus is located.

Oh, and that reminds me. A while ago, an alliance member and I did Hell's with heroes. It was all going great, up until we got to the Seer. For some reason, the stupid healers wouldn't heal the Seer, and even thoughwe almost saved him anyway, he died. So we resigned since we wanted the bonus, and then we realized something... None of us were actually healers! We had a single smite monk that was basically SoH with the two divine party heals, and nothing else that was healing.

So my point is, you don't really need great monks for the majority of the game. If the rest of the team is set up properly with stuff like SY, Enfeebling Blood, minions, etc. there's no reason why the monk(s) couldn't run something as simple as an HB bar.

Improvavel · Jul 25, 2009, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

I used to pull all the time, and still do for pugs and H/H. I got my longbow out, shot at the closest monster, then hauled ass back to the backline. Worked great in the old tombs B/P and stuff. I know I also almost always pull (on any prof) for that one part in Hell's Precipice where the bonus is located.

Oh, and that reminds me. A while ago, an alliance member and I did Hell's with heroes. It was all going great, up until we got to the Seer. For some reason, the stupid healers wouldn't heal the Seer, and even thoughwe almost saved him anyway, he died. So we resigned since we wanted the bonus, and then we realized something... None of us were actually healers! We had a single smite monk that was basically SoH with the two divine party heals, and nothing else that was healing.

So my point is, you don't really need great monks for the majority of the game. If the rest of the team is set up properly with stuff like SY, Enfeebling Blood, minions, etc. there's no reason why the monk(s) couldn't run something as simple as an HB bar.

So basically you are saying that with enough damage mitigation, aka as protection, you don't even need much healing and then conclude that since you don't even need that much healing there is no reason a player shouldn't be able to run a full healing bar with a dedicated elite to make your spells heal for more?

the_jos · Jul 26, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by pug_ster

Actually, Monks can res fast now using UA, which makes a BIG difference in HM. It was kind of funny of people trying to form groups for HM ZQ yesterday for Nundu bay. UA is necessary especially for bosses like Dervish boss Sheoli which does insane amount of damage using mystic twister. The other pugs don't pull (again) and we agrooed 2 groups so I have to do the cut and run thing. Afterwards, I had to pull, imagine a monk pulling mobs.

For my other non-monk toons for the ZQ mission yesterday, I just grouped with a 2 pugs discordway group and have less problems.

I hate Scribe Wensal more in that mission, have seen him spike several party members at once there. Sheoli is more manageable when only one or two players aggro him.

And UA.... I'm not such a big fan of it. I still pretend preventing red bars from going down is more valuable than pushing them up (res is also pushing red bars up).

And the fact that a 2 human team with 6 heroes gives less problem than a full human PUG group ..... well, euh.... sounds like one of the reasons many people prefer playing with heroes instead of real players...

Jaigoda · Jul 27, 2009, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So basically you are saying that with enough damage mitigation, aka as protection, you don't even need much healing and then conclude that since you don't even need that much healing there is no reason a player shouldn't be able to run a full healing bar with a dedicated elite to make your spells heal for more?

My point is that PvE is retardedly easy, and a good team will have lots of passive defense anyway (wards, weakness, minions, and such), so there's not really anything wrong with a monk going mostly/all heal. The alternative, prot, is often not going to be as effective in a balanced team, simply because there's so much damage mitigation already. Especially with someone who isn't that great at monking, prot is hardly going to do anything in this case. I'm actually a big advocate of prot, don't get me wrong, but I ,unlike most people here, can understand that sometimes prot.. just isn't worth it...

Kake · Jul 27, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Well I play as monk, and imo, every build works differently on different places. Well, mostly. But builds like HB, can be really great help on general PvE. Myself, i like to play with monk, using different builds, not just 1 or 2. It is not builds, its players. This thread started, because someone said, HB + GoLE + HP SUCKS! They dont suck actually. If you never played monk, dont come judge them then. Besides, if everyoen would use WoH Hybrid. Good monk can be pro with Orison of Healing, and Healing Breeze. But yeah, for newcomers, it is easier, to use Hybrid builds, because they can be much more simplier than others.

glacialphoenix · Jul 27, 2009, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

But yeah, for newcomers, it is easier, to use Hybrid builds, because they can be much more simplier than others.

I thought generally speaking it was the all-heal builds that were easier to handle for newcomers, because you only have to worry about pushing red bars up. Hence the popularity of HB + GoLE + HP, as it's theoretically foolproof.

My main beef with it is that I see it used so often, regardless of location or situation, and so poorly.

Kake · Jul 27, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Yes, you see it mostly everywhere, that is true. I dont understand, why EVERY monk uses that. i dont use myself it, because, generally, i dont like it. but it sucks on ab, and it can be VERY good, in some missions.